TIME FOR REVOLUTION/Teachers should all qiut thier jobs all of you just quit

[wolfgang]

When Governments decided to screww the general population
Best thing is a revolution
If you all quit the government can do nothing to you
and they will have to negotiate
i would not negotiate with a government that runs to the courts
check you rights
they do not have the right to force to work without a contract

[b***@hotmail.com.removejunkmail]

They work they get paid pretty simple concept. The government is not forcing
them back to work.

Post by wolfgang
When Governments decided to screww the general population
Best thing is a revolution
If you all quit the government can do nothing to you
and they will have to negotiate
i would not negotiate with a government that runs to the courts
check you rights
they do not have the right to force to work without a contract

[Jelly]

billyb,

your simplification is incorrect.
There was both a contract in place and a process for renegotiating that contract. A "simple" analogy would be if the bank advised you that your payments on your house loan were now doubled and you had to start payment immediately. On protesting they had the courts confirm the decision and began fining you. You of course have the option of giving up your house and letting someone else move in who is willing to pay the price...

Post by b***@hotmail.com.removejunkmail
They work they get paid pretty simple concept. The government is not forcing
them back to work.

Post by wolfgang
When Governments decided to screww the general population
Best thing is a revolution
If you all quit the government can do nothing to you
and they will have to negotiate
i would not negotiate with a government that runs to the courts
check you rights
they do not have the right to force to work without a contract

[Scattershot@@@]

I love when ignorant people have to speak their mind, I just had to respond
to your ignorance.

(I am not a teacher btw).

First of all, like GW Bush using 'freedom' to justify any foreign invasion,
our government keeps stressing that BC teachers are 'breaking the law' and
setting a bad example for kids.
Too bad most people and the local news outlets have bad long term memory and
forget that the governmetn broke labor laws, was found in contempt by the
courts and was fined BUT the government passed legislation so that the new
laws made it that they were no longer in contempt and didn't have to pay the
fines (isn't it nice to be all mighty and powerful?)

Secondly, teachers are professionals and salaray based on their contracts.
I (like most people) get paid by the hour, and I (like most people) don't
have a contract.
Contractual workers, whether teachers, hockey players, doctors, etc. have
the right to negotiate their contract when their time is up. To have a
contract 'forced upon them' is really anti-democratic.

Thirdly, you have to put the contract negotiations in the context of the
last 20 years.
Teachers passed up significant salary increases in the '90's for certain
education rights like guaranteeing certain class sizes, etc. Love the
people like you who chastize the students, how many private sector people
would pass up a raise for their 'customers'? The problem is that all these
rights they were given were pretty much taken away by the Liberals in 2003,
so it's like the teachers never got the raise they were due, and all the
concessions they got instead were taken away, so the teachers have actually
lost the past 10+ years....

Fourthly, if government did not 'impose' a contact the teachers wouldn't
have taken such extreme job action. They warned the government, but this
government is in contempt of international labor laws (yes the BCTF won a
ruling at the UN and WTO) [keep in mind I like the liberals more than the
NDP).

As well, the teachers "fat-cat" pension is deserved because of the shit they
deal with on a daily basis.
Really, I've worked in a classroom for a week as a volunteer and let me tell
you, that profession is a noble calling because it takes a special person to
deal with that shit for 10 months a year (And then have to go home and think
about it when they do their marking and lesson planning).

Lastly, don't think the Liberals haven't noticed the teachers pension.
While the Liberals came to office and gave themselves all big pay raises in
2003, they took the line bravely that no other public workers (other than
themselves of course) should get pay raises for X amount of years.
Then in order to save money, they decided to cut 6000+ teaching positions
and changed the way new teachers get contracts/benefits so that the majority
of teachers will have a hard time hitting the maximum pension target figure
that was not to difficult to attain previosoulif you worked 30+ years as a
teacher.

Oh ya, the kicker to boot is that thanks to tuition raises, a University
student taking the 1 year teacher certification course spends about $8000 on
that course (+ the cost of materials). To top that off, about 1/3 of that
course is spent in the classroom so that teachers are spendinling like $3000
to apprentice in the classroom. Teachers ARE PAYING to apprentice in the
classroom. Teachers are only one of 2 jobs to do that. And to thank them
for their University degree, hours of volunteer experience, most new
teachers (who have incurrred significant debt) are greeted with the likely
hood they may not be able to get anything other than substitute work for 3-5
years.

Of course, teachers are specially screened by University's where the
University's try to select people who show that are really into volunteering
and are more selfless than the average person. That is why so many teachers
are advocate's for children and (in my opinion) stupidly compromise their
own wage positions to fight for children's education rights when the current
government will surely take advantage of that selfless ness.

Now you might want to rethink your ignorant position that teachers got it
good and are treated fairly.
They aren't your average overpaid public sector worker. They are one of the
few examples of underpaid public sector workers....

Oh grow up.
The teachers don't want an 8 month cooling off period because then
they cannot use our children as hostages / bargaining chips! This is
plain, simple union strategy, nothing more.
The teachers collective bargaing process is broken and needs to be
fixed once and for all. That will take at least 8 months to hammer
out, and it would be great if the teachers would be a part of the
process to fix things, rather than throw a stick in the spokes.
I am private sector, and if I went into my bosses office and demanded
a 15% raise over 3 years, I would - most likely - be summarily fired
for insubordination.
Teachers make good money, and have a fat-cat pension - another thing
that most people in the private sector do NOT get.
They don't like it? Why not go work somewhere else. BC, and Vancouver
in particular, is a sought after place to live. I am sure that there
are lots of teachers that would love to live and work here, as opposed
to other less desireable places.
Oh, and BTW, ditch the cross-posting!
/rant-off

Post by wolfgang
When Governments decided to screww the general population
Best thing is a revolution
If you all quit the government can do nothing to you
and they will have to negotiate
i would not negotiate with a government that runs to the courts
check you rights
they do not have the right to force to work without a contract

[Someone]

Post by Scattershot@@@
I love when ignorant people have to speak their mind, I just had to respond
to your ignorance.

Agree with all your points, Scattershot. I also wanted to add that teachers
get $100 a year to buy classroom materials and supplies for students. Most
teachers spend more than that, and the money comes out of their pockets.
That's another issue that needs to be addressed.

[Flaccid Phallus]

Post by Someone

Post by Scattershot@@@
I love when ignorant people have to speak their mind, I just had to respond
to your ignorance.

Agree with all your points, Scattershot. I also wanted to add that teachers
get $100 a year to buy classroom materials and supplies for students. Most
teachers spend more than that, and the money comes out of their pockets.
That's another issue that needs to be addressed.

I went through K-12, and I never saw any extra $100 worth of materials and
supplies in any classes. In fact, teachers for the most part wouldn't even use
the photocopier to run off copies of notes for us, we always had to copy them
down from the blackboard.

[Jelly]

In my personal association with a dozen teachers it is clear that it is very common that teachers provide supplies for their students. It is clear that this runs throughout the system, your personal experience notwithstanding. It was also my personal experience that there was assistance provided back when I went through school even though I had to purchase my own photocopies and take notes. What would it take for you to actually hear some of the reality that is happening out there?

jf

Post by Flaccid Phallus

Post by Someone

Post by Scattershot@@@
I love when ignorant people have to speak their mind, I just had to respond
to your ignorance.

Agree with all your points, Scattershot. I also wanted to add that teachers
get $100 a year to buy classroom materials and supplies for students. Most
teachers spend more than that, and the money comes out of their pockets.
That's another issue that needs to be addressed.

I went through K-12, and I never saw any extra $100 worth of materials and
supplies in any classes. In fact, teachers for the most part wouldn't even use
the photocopier to run off copies of notes for us, we always had to copy them
down from the blackboard.

[Flaccid Phallus]

Post by Jelly
In my personal association with a dozen teachers it is clear that it is very

common that teachers provide supplies for their students. It i
What supplies? When I went to school if you told a teacher you forgot your pen
or didn't have one you'd get a lecture for 5 minutes and then be told to borrow
one from a fellow classmember. I've never seen teachers hand out supplies,
except for art class which is budgeted and students usually had to pay an extra
fee, too. Has something changed?

Post by Jelly
jf

Post by Flaccid Phallus

Post by Someone

Post by Scattershot@@@
I love when ignorant people have to speak their mind, I just had to respond
to your ignorance.

Agree with all your points, Scattershot. I also wanted to add that teachers
get $100 a year to buy classroom materials and supplies for students. Most
teachers spend more than that, and the money comes out of their pockets.
That's another issue that needs to be addressed.

I went through K-12, and I never saw any extra $100 worth of materials and
supplies in any classes. In fact, teachers for the most part wouldn't even use
the photocopier to run off copies of notes for us, we always had to copy them
down from the blackboard.

[Flaccid Phallus]

Post by Jelly

Post by Jelly
In my personal association with a dozen teachers it is clear that it is very

common that teachers provide supplies for their students. It i
What supplies? When I went to school if you told a teacher you forgot your pen
or didn't have one you'd get a lecture for 5 minutes and then be told to borrow
one from a fellow classmember. I've never seen teachers hand out supplies,
except for art class which is budgeted and students usually had to pay an extra
fee, too. Has something changed?

BTW: teachers also usually marked tests in class, though we'd still not get the
results for days, it wasn't because they were doing it at home. They may have
done lesson planning at home, but the frequent claim that teachers put in
several extra unpaid hours a day doesn't sound realistic to me.

Post by Jelly

Post by Jelly
jf

Post by Flaccid Phallus

Post by Someone

Post by Scattershot@@@
I love when ignorant people have to speak their mind, I just had to respond
to your ignorance.

Agree with all your points, Scattershot. I also wanted to add that teachers
get $100 a year to buy classroom materials and supplies for students. Most
teachers spend more than that, and the money comes out of their pockets.
That's another issue that needs to be addressed.

I went through K-12, and I never saw any extra $100 worth of materials and
supplies in any classes. In fact, teachers for the most part wouldn't even

use

Post by Jelly

Post by Flaccid Phallus
the photocopier to run off copies of notes for us, we always had to copy

them

Post by Jelly

Post by Flaccid Phallus
down from the blackboard.

[Scattershot@@@]

Post by Flaccid Phallus
BTW: teachers also usually marked tests in class, though we'd still not get the
results for days, it wasn't because they were doing it at home. They may have
done lesson planning at home, but the frequent claim that teachers put in
several extra unpaid hours a day doesn't sound realistic to me.

Hey Flaccid, don't worry, the way the current government treats teachers I
think that some of our more promising university graduates will think twice
about becoming a teacher.

30 years ago, people often went into teaching because it was a good
livelihood.

Today, places like SFU and UBC only accept teachign candidates who have
lengthy resumes of volunteer experience (e.g. they are 'bleeding hearts' who
often put others ahead of themselves) and because of this, the teachers tend
to be a little more selfless (e.g. it isn't all about the money which isn't
that good anyways compared to what university grads could make in the
private sector).

Keep up the teacher bashing and you'll see the quality of teachers go down
(as well as the quantity) and outsourcing our teacher jobs to India and
China isn't a solution yet...

[Jelly]

Will everyone quit taking their little pesonal experience and get out there and talk to some teachers. They are real people with real lives. They are not trying to pull the wool over everyones eyes. What they do is so incredibly hard. All the latest changes do is make it harder and less interesting as a profession. The burnt out teachers that each of us remember are the ones who lost the dream and fell in line with the bullshit. Each of us must have had one or two that inspired us to think, investigate, connect, support, make community.

All this teacher bashing is just giving up. Is this what we say to our wives? You have it easy dear? To our teachers? Here let me try your job. I'll show you how simple it is to teach 150 children, maintain order, deal with behavioural difficulties, deal with ESL issues, drug issues, acting out issues of children where both parents have to work to make ends meet, deal with lack of textbooks, crowding, hunger...

Post by Jelly

Post by Jelly
In my personal association with a dozen teachers it is clear that it is very

common that teachers provide supplies for their students. It i
What supplies? When I went to school if you told a teacher you forgot your pen
or didn't have one you'd get a lecture for 5 minutes and then be told to borrow
one from a fellow classmember. I've never seen teachers hand out supplies,
except for art class which is budgeted and students usually had to pay an extra
fee, too. Has something changed?

Post by Jelly
jf

Post by Flaccid Phallus

Post by Someone

Post by Scattershot@@@
I love when ignorant people have to speak their mind, I just had to respond
to your ignorance.

Agree with all your points, Scattershot. I also wanted to add that teachers
get $100 a year to buy classroom materials and supplies for students. Most
teachers spend more than that, and the money comes out of their pockets.
That's another issue that needs to be addressed.

I went through K-12, and I never saw any extra $100 worth of materials and
supplies in any classes. In fact, teachers for the most part wouldn't even

use

Post by Jelly

Post by Flaccid Phallus
the photocopier to run off copies of notes for us, we always had to copy

them

Post by Jelly

Post by Flaccid Phallus
down from the blackboard.

[Karl Pollak]

x-no-archive: yes

Post by Jelly
Will everyone quit taking their little pesonal experience and get out there and talk to some teachers. They are real people with real lives. They are not trying to pull the wool over everyones eyes. What they do is so incredibly hard.

Go away.
Everybody else's job is very hard, as well. Quit whining.

Post by Jelly
All the latest changes do is make it harder and less
interesting as a profession.

Which latest changes?

The burnt out teachers that each of us remember are the ones who lost the
dream and fell in line with the bullshit. Each of us must have had one or
two that inspired us to think, investigate, connect, support, make
community.

[Karl Pollak]

x-no-archive: yes

Post by Flaccid Phallus
What supplies? When I went to school if you told a teacher you forgot your pen
or didn't have one you'd get a lecture for 5 minutes and then be told to borrow
one from a fellow classmember. I've never seen teachers hand out supplies,
except for art class which is budgeted and students usually had to pay an extra
fee, too. Has something changed?

Teachers do buy a lot of stuff for their classes, like glue, scissors,
pretty coloured paper, and similar crafts stuff. But they also get a lot
of supplies donated by companies.

[Someone]

Post by Flaccid Phallus
I went through K-12, and I never saw any extra $100 worth of materials and
supplies in any classes. In fact, teachers for the most part wouldn't even use
the photocopier to run off copies of notes for us, we always had to copy them
down from the blackboard.

I guess you went through school in an empty box then?

[Flaccid Phallus]

Post by Someone

Post by Flaccid Phallus
I went through K-12, and I never saw any extra $100 worth of materials and
supplies in any classes. In fact, teachers for the most part wouldn't even use
the photocopier to run off copies of notes for us, we always had to copy them
down from the blackboard.

I guess you went through school in an empty box then?

What?

[Karl Pollak]

x-no-archive: yes

Post by Someone
Agree with all your points, Scattershot. I also wanted to add that teachers
get $100 a year to buy classroom materials and supplies for students. Most
teachers spend more than that, and the money comes out of their pockets.
That's another issue that needs to be addressed.

OK, so they are given a budget. Are not smart enoughto keep to that
budget, and you want the public to pick up the tab for their making
unauthorized purchases?

From which planet are you visiting us?

[L. Ron Waddle]

Post by Karl Pollak
x-no-archive: yes

Post by Someone
Agree with all your points, Scattershot. I also wanted to add that teachers
get $100 a year to buy classroom materials and supplies for students. Most
teachers spend more than that, and the money comes out of their pockets.
That's another issue that needs to be addressed.

OK, so they are given a budget. Are not smart enoughto keep to that
budget, and you want the public to pick up the tab for their making
unauthorized purchases?

As someone who was once a teacher but quit because of idiots like you, I
bought the stuff because my students needed it to learn. See, because
you didn't buy textbooks for my classroom, I had no textbooks. All I had
was a chalkboard. Not even chalk for the chalkboard. And that $100
budget? HAH! My budget for supplies was $0 (zero). So I bought some
chalk, and I bought some materials to copy and hand out to the kids so
that they had something to study from, and I spent far, far more than
$100 on all that.

Then I burned out and didn't give a shit that the students were going to
be stupid and ignorant if I didn't spend my own money buying what they
needed to learn, so I quit teaching.

Post by Karl Pollak
From which planet are you visiting us?

The planet where teachers care whether their students learn or not.

At my school, we ran out of *PAPER* before the end of the year. I had to
buy the paper to print the final exams for my students out of my own
pocket, and because the copy machine was also out of toner, had to pay
to copy the exams at Kinkos.

The next year, I simply wrote the test on the chalkboard (using chalk
that I bought with my own money, I might add), and told the kids to copy
the test off the board, and if the student did not bring paper to class,
well, that wasn't my problem, find some paper or take an F. I also
turned in my notice, since if the people of that area didn't care about
their children's education enough to buy the basic materials necessary
to educate their children, why should *I* care?

- Elron

[Matthew Mak]

Post by Karl Pollak
OK, so they are given a budget. Are not smart enoughto keep to that
budget, and you want the public to pick up the tab for their making
unauthorized purchases?

This has got to be the most idiotic thing said so far in this thread...

Now we all know how much you care about your future kid's education, or your
education for that matter as you sound quite ill-educated.

[Jelly]

Hear hear!

Well spoken scattershot.
As for newmans contention that they are paid well, it is just not true.
They earn about $35,000 to $60,000 per year. The 60 end is available after 10 years in the industry. That equates to a starting take home pay of around $2000 per month for the full timers; less for the 1/2 of all teachers who work on call or have part time contracts. As you put it it takes them quite some time to get on full time and yet 6 months after they begin the $60,000 student loans must begin to be paid off. They train for 5 or 6 years to get salaries that managers, trades, physicians, nurses, IT professionals, police and countless others would never accept. In addition to that they are not treated as professionals in the same way as so many others. They do not get private offices, secretaries, basic supplies, telephones et al that the rest of us in professional environments take for granted. Simple things like ensuring that copies of class material are available before class requires that they show up early enough to get in line for the single photocopier tha
t the entire teaching staff shares or perhaps do it on the lunch hour, after school, or weekends perhaps we they are not involved the the required extra curricular activities.

I find the ignorance out there astounding

Post by Scattershot@@@
I love when ignorant people have to speak their mind, I just had to respond
to your ignorance.
(I am not a teacher btw).
First of all, like GW Bush using 'freedom' to justify any foreign invasion,
our government keeps stressing that BC teachers are 'breaking the law' and
setting a bad example for kids.
Too bad most people and the local news outlets have bad long term memory and
forget that the governmetn broke labor laws, was found in contempt by the
courts and was fined BUT the government passed legislation so that the new
laws made it that they were no longer in contempt and didn't have to pay the
fines (isn't it nice to be all mighty and powerful?)
Secondly, teachers are professionals and salaray based on their contracts.
I (like most people) get paid by the hour, and I (like most people) don't
have a contract.
Contractual workers, whether teachers, hockey players, doctors, etc. have
the right to negotiate their contract when their time is up. To have a
contract 'forced upon them' is really anti-democratic.
Thirdly, you have to put the contract negotiations in the context of the
last 20 years.
Teachers passed up significant salary increases in the '90's for certain
education rights like guaranteeing certain class sizes, etc. Love the
people like you who chastize the students, how many private sector people
would pass up a raise for their 'customers'? The problem is that all these
rights they were given were pretty much taken away by the Liberals in 2003,
so it's like the teachers never got the raise they were due, and all the
concessions they got instead were taken away, so the teachers have actually
lost the past 10+ years....
Fourthly, if government did not 'impose' a contact the teachers wouldn't
have taken such extreme job action. They warned the government, but this
government is in contempt of international labor laws (yes the BCTF won a
ruling at the UN and WTO) [keep in mind I like the liberals more than the
NDP).
As well, the teachers "fat-cat" pension is deserved because of the shit they
deal with on a daily basis.
Really, I've worked in a classroom for a week as a volunteer and let me tell
you, that profession is a noble calling because it takes a special person to
deal with that shit for 10 months a year (And then have to go home and think
about it when they do their marking and lesson planning).
Lastly, don't think the Liberals haven't noticed the teachers pension.
While the Liberals came to office and gave themselves all big pay raises in
2003, they took the line bravely that no other public workers (other than
themselves of course) should get pay raises for X amount of years.
Then in order to save money, they decided to cut 6000+ teaching positions
and changed the way new teachers get contracts/benefits so that the majority
of teachers will have a hard time hitting the maximum pension target figure
that was not to difficult to attain previosoulif you worked 30+ years as a
teacher.
Oh ya, the kicker to boot is that thanks to tuition raises, a University
student taking the 1 year teacher certification course spends about $8000 on
that course (+ the cost of materials). To top that off, about 1/3 of that
course is spent in the classroom so that teachers are spendinling like $3000
to apprentice in the classroom. Teachers ARE PAYING to apprentice in the
classroom. Teachers are only one of 2 jobs to do that. And to thank them
for their University degree, hours of volunteer experience, most new
teachers (who have incurrred significant debt) are greeted with the likely
hood they may not be able to get anything other than substitute work for 3-5
years.
Of course, teachers are specially screened by University's where the
University's try to select people who show that are really into volunteering
and are more selfless than the average person. That is why so many teachers
are advocate's for children and (in my opinion) stupidly compromise their
own wage positions to fight for children's education rights when the current
government will surely take advantage of that selfless ness.
Now you might want to rethink your ignorant position that teachers got it
good and are treated fairly.
They aren't your average overpaid public sector worker. They are one of the
few examples of underpaid public sector workers....

Oh grow up.
The teachers don't want an 8 month cooling off period because then
they cannot use our children as hostages / bargaining chips! This is
plain, simple union strategy, nothing more.
The teachers collective bargaing process is broken and needs to be
fixed once and for all. That will take at least 8 months to hammer
out, and it would be great if the teachers would be a part of the
process to fix things, rather than throw a stick in the spokes.
I am private sector, and if I went into my bosses office and demanded
a 15% raise over 3 years, I would - most likely - be summarily fired
for insubordination.
Teachers make good money, and have a fat-cat pension - another thing
that most people in the private sector do NOT get.
They don't like it? Why not go work somewhere else. BC, and Vancouver
in particular, is a sought after place to live. I am sure that there
are lots of teachers that would love to live and work here, as opposed
to other less desireable places.
Oh, and BTW, ditch the cross-posting!
/rant-off

Post by wolfgang
When Governments decided to screww the general population
Best thing is a revolution
If you all quit the government can do nothing to you
and they will have to negotiate
i would not negotiate with a government that runs to the courts
check you rights
they do not have the right to force to work without a contract

[Scattershot@@@]

Post by Jelly
t the entire teaching staff shares or perhaps do it on the lunch hour,
after school, or weekends perhaps we they are not involved the the
required extra curricular activities.
I find the ignorance out there astounding

The thing is, like any profession there are 'bad' teachers.

The thing is, unless you have volunteered in a classroom for a week you have
really NO idea what teachers go through.

And after talking to a teacher recruting personnel at SFU, there's a reason
why they expect so much volunteer experience from potential teaching
candidates these days because most teachers will be volunteering a lot of
their free time and even personal money for the job they do...

[Steve]

I did not want to get into this, just reading and hearing everyones's
thoughts but
i have to say that Scattershot's post is right on the money. What he said
makes
alot of sense and i think Billyb should listen to him and no i'm not a
teacher and i
work for a private company.
Thanks Steve!

Post by Scattershot@@@
I love when ignorant people have to speak their mind, I just had to respond
to your ignorance.
(I am not a teacher btw).
First of all, like GW Bush using 'freedom' to justify any foreign invasion,
our government keeps stressing that BC teachers are 'breaking the law' and
setting a bad example for kids.
Too bad most people and the local news outlets have bad long term memory and
forget that the governmetn broke labor laws, was found in contempt by the
courts and was fined BUT the government passed legislation so that the new
laws made it that they were no longer in contempt and didn't have to pay the
fines (isn't it nice to be all mighty and powerful?)
Secondly, teachers are professionals and salaray based on their contracts.
I (like most people) get paid by the hour, and I (like most people) don't
have a contract.
Contractual workers, whether teachers, hockey players, doctors, etc. have
the right to negotiate their contract when their time is up. To have a
contract 'forced upon them' is really anti-democratic.
Thirdly, you have to put the contract negotiations in the context of the
last 20 years.
Teachers passed up significant salary increases in the '90's for certain
education rights like guaranteeing certain class sizes, etc. Love the
people like you who chastize the students, how many private sector people
would pass up a raise for their 'customers'? The problem is that all these
rights they were given were pretty much taken away by the Liberals in 2003,
so it's like the teachers never got the raise they were due, and all the
concessions they got instead were taken away, so the teachers have actually
lost the past 10+ years....
Fourthly, if government did not 'impose' a contact the teachers wouldn't
have taken such extreme job action. They warned the government, but this
government is in contempt of international labor laws (yes the BCTF won a
ruling at the UN and WTO) [keep in mind I like the liberals more than the
NDP).
As well, the teachers "fat-cat" pension is deserved because of the shit they
deal with on a daily basis.
Really, I've worked in a classroom for a week as a volunteer and let me tell
you, that profession is a noble calling because it takes a special person to
deal with that shit for 10 months a year (And then have to go home and think
about it when they do their marking and lesson planning).
Lastly, don't think the Liberals haven't noticed the teachers pension.
While the Liberals came to office and gave themselves all big pay raises in
2003, they took the line bravely that no other public workers (other than
themselves of course) should get pay raises for X amount of years.
Then in order to save money, they decided to cut 6000+ teaching positions
and changed the way new teachers get contracts/benefits so that the majority
of teachers will have a hard time hitting the maximum pension target figure
that was not to difficult to attain previosoulif you worked 30+ years as a
teacher.
Oh ya, the kicker to boot is that thanks to tuition raises, a University
student taking the 1 year teacher certification course spends about $8000 on
that course (+ the cost of materials). To top that off, about 1/3 of that
course is spent in the classroom so that teachers are spendinling like $3000
to apprentice in the classroom. Teachers ARE PAYING to apprentice in the
classroom. Teachers are only one of 2 jobs to do that. And to thank them
for their University degree, hours of volunteer experience, most new
teachers (who have incurrred significant debt) are greeted with the likely
hood they may not be able to get anything other than substitute work for 3-5
years.
Of course, teachers are specially screened by University's where the
University's try to select people who show that are really into volunteering
and are more selfless than the average person. That is why so many teachers
are advocate's for children and (in my opinion) stupidly compromise their
own wage positions to fight for children's education rights when the current
government will surely take advantage of that selfless ness.
Now you might want to rethink your ignorant position that teachers got it
good and are treated fairly.
They aren't your average overpaid public sector worker. They are one of the
few examples of underpaid public sector workers....

Oh grow up.
The teachers don't want an 8 month cooling off period because then
they cannot use our children as hostages / bargaining chips! This is
plain, simple union strategy, nothing more.
The teachers collective bargaing process is broken and needs to be
fixed once and for all. That will take at least 8 months to hammer
out, and it would be great if the teachers would be a part of the
process to fix things, rather than throw a stick in the spokes.
I am private sector, and if I went into my bosses office and demanded
a 15% raise over 3 years, I would - most likely - be summarily fired
for insubordination.
Teachers make good money, and have a fat-cat pension - another thing
that most people in the private sector do NOT get.
They don't like it? Why not go work somewhere else. BC, and Vancouver
in particular, is a sought after place to live. I am sure that there
are lots of teachers that would love to live and work here, as opposed
to other less desireable places.
Oh, and BTW, ditch the cross-posting!
/rant-off

Post by wolfgang
When Governments decided to screww the general population
Best thing is a revolution
If you all quit the government can do nothing to you
and they will have to negotiate
i would not negotiate with a government that runs to the courts
check you rights
they do not have the right to force to work without a contract

[Karl Pollak]

x-no-archive: yes

Post by Scattershot@@@
First of all, like GW Bush using 'freedom' to justify any foreign invasion,
our government keeps stressing that BC teachers are 'breaking the law' and
setting a bad example for kids.

As soon as you bring Bush into the discussion, I am forewarned that you
willbe talking bullshit.

Post by Scattershot@@@
Too bad most people and the local news outlets have bad long term memory and
forget that the governmetn broke labor laws, was found in contempt by the
courts and was fined BUT the government passed legislation so that the new
laws made it that they were no longer in contempt and didn't have to pay the
fines (isn't it nice to be all mighty and powerful?)

When did this happen? You have the judgment for this?

Post by Scattershot@@@
Secondly, teachers are professionals and salaray based on their contracts.
I (like most people) get paid by the hour, and I (like most people) don't
have a contract.

Sorry but rhat the hell does a contract got to do with how you are paid?
There are thousands of hourly paid workers with collective agreements.

Post by Scattershot@@@
Contractual workers, whether teachers, hockey players, doctors, etc. have
the right to negotiate their contract when their time is up. To have a
contract 'forced upon them' is really anti-democratic.

Democracy has nothing to do with anything.

Post by Scattershot@@@
Thirdly, you have to put the contract negotiations in the context of the
last 20 years.
Teachers passed up significant salary increases in the '90's for certain
education rights like guaranteeing certain class sizes, etc.

In the last contract, the teachers got 7.5% pay raise.
Yes, the NDP did stick the class sizes into the teachers contracts, they
also included many other management decisions into other contracts,
including the nurses and hospital workers. But that does not mean that
those are proper items to be included in labour contracts. What exactly
woudl be the point of having any management if you hand over all the
management decisions to the unions?

Post by Scattershot@@@
Love the
people like you who chastize the students, how many private sector people
would pass up a raise for their 'customers'? The problem is that all these
rights they were given were pretty much taken away by the Liberals in 2003,
so it's like the teachers never got the raise they were due, and all the
concessions they got instead were taken away, so the teachers have actually
lost the past 10+ years....

Wrong. They did get a raise in the last contract and these alleged "rights"
are nothing of the sort.

Post by Scattershot@@@
Fourthly, if government did not 'impose' a contact the teachers wouldn't
have taken such extreme job action.

Wrong. The teachers union had planned to strike right after alst year's
election. Only the fact that the Liberals made their plans public stopped
them from doing it. They had already taken a "job action" vote. Don;t
forget that they already had over a year and a half to negotiate a
contract. In that time, they only met with the school boards' bargaining
committee about 40 times and had not resolved even one single issue. not
one.

Post by Scattershot@@@
They warned the government, but this
government is in contempt of international labor laws (yes the BCTF won a
ruling at the UN and WTO) [keep in mind I like the liberals more than the
NDP).

Who the hell gives a shit what the UN thinks. Not to mention that the WTO
has nothing to do with labour contracts and you are just blowing hot air.

Post by Scattershot@@@
As well, the teachers "fat-cat" pension is deserved because of the shit they
deal with on a daily basis.

Cry me a river. It was their choice to go into that profession. If they
don't like it, they can become dog groomers. Nobody is forcing them to
stay teachers.

Post by Scattershot@@@
Really, I've worked in a classroom for a week as a volunteer and let me tell
you, that profession is a noble calling because it takes a special person to
deal with that shit for 10 months a year (And then have to go home and think
about it when they do their marking and lesson planning).

Oh so that was why the teacher I saw yeaterday was growing a halo!

Post by Scattershot@@@
Lastly, don't think the Liberals haven't noticed the teachers pension.

Huh?

Post by Scattershot@@@
Then in order to save money, they decided to cut 6000+ teaching positions
and changed the way new teachers get contracts/benefits so that the majority
of teachers will have a hard time hitting the maximum pension target figure
that was not to difficult to attain previosoulif you worked 30+ years as a
teacher.

Again, you are talkign nonsense. Teh govenment has not cut a single
teaching position. The government does not make those decisions. The
school boards do. And their budgets have been increased despite dropping
enrollments.

This government has not changed any way in which teachers get their
contracts, that was the NDP when they brought in province wide bargaining.
in addition, the liberal government did EXACTLY THE SAME THING as the
previous 2 NDP government had done == legislated the teachers contracts
because the teachers would not agree to anything the school boards wanted
and made demands that the school boards would not accept.

Post by Scattershot@@@
Oh ya, the kicker to boot is that thanks to tuition raises, a University
student taking the 1 year teacher certification course spends about $8000 on
that course (+ the cost of materials).

So go study dentistry.

Post by Scattershot@@@
To top that off, about 1/3 of that
course is spent in the classroom so that teachers are spendinling like $3000
to apprentice in the classroom. Teachers ARE PAYING to apprentice in the
classroom. Teachers are only one of 2 jobs to do that.

Many other professions use a practicum to train new people.
Or do you perhaps beleive that you can get all the wisdom of the world in a
university lecture hall?

Post by Scattershot@@@
And to thank them
for their University degree, hours of volunteer experience, most new
teachers (who have incurrred significant debt) are greeted with the likely
hood they may not be able to get anything other than substitute work for 3-5
years.

OK, so what?
If the job is so hard, and getting into it is so expensive and so
difficult, go plant trees. Stop crying on my shoulder while gently slide
your hand into my wallet.

Post by Scattershot@@@
Now you might want to rethink your ignorant position that teachers got it
good and are treated fairly.

[Jelly]

Wolfgang...
and all the rest of you for that matter.

remember to write in to the newspapers and to the government.
There are some who still don't believe in the popular sentiment and
they need to hear from you. As good as it is to speak up in here, this
venue has a very small audience.

Post by wolfgang
When Governments decided to screww the general population
Best thing is a revolution
If you all quit the government can do nothing to you
and they will have to negotiate
i would not negotiate with a government that runs to the courts
check you rights
they do not have the right to force to work without a contract

[Scattershot@@@]

CanWest global (who owns the PRovince, Sun, and BCTV) hates the NDP (like I
do) but they also view any bad press for the provincial Liberals as good
news for the Provincial NDP so its hard to get any CanWest owned property
(whose editors have to answer to the higherups) to give a well-balanced
account of the "non-liberal" side.

Post by Jelly
Wolfgang...
and all the rest of you for that matter.
remember to write in to the newspapers and to the government.
There are some who still don't believe in the popular sentiment and
they need to hear from you. As good as it is to speak up in here, this
venue has a very small audience.

Post by wolfgang
When Governments decided to screww the general population
Best thing is a revolution
If you all quit the government can do nothing to you
and they will have to negotiate
i would not negotiate with a government that runs to the courts
check you rights
they do not have the right to force to work without a contract

[Doc Holoiday]

Post by wolfgang
When Governments decided to screww the general population
Best thing is a revolution
If you all quit the government can do nothing to you
and they will have to negotiate
i would not negotiate with a government that runs to the courts
check you rights
they do not have the right to force to work without a contract

you never had an teacher teach you english in you're life, did you? lol!
shtoopid focktard.
--
"You gotta be smarter than your oponant."

---- Big Dumb Dave. (***@yahoo.com)

"Members of the 3rd right (Nazi/facist)?"

---- Scotty a.k.a. mr. third right. (***@canada.com)

.--------------------------------------.
( BAHHHH! KATO is an friend too )
( my rear end BAHHHHH! )
`--------------------------------------'
, ,/
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